Orchestrating the Chaos out of your Intralogistics Operations (Wolfgang Hackenberg, Co-Founder, Synaos)

00:00:00: Hello and welcome to the logistics tribe

00:00:08: I'm your host boys felgendreher and today we will talk about how to orchestrate your intralogistics operations when you have hgvs and amr's from different vendors traditional forklift and people working side-by-side in your warehouse and production facilities.

00:00:21: That can be quite a nightmare and office tons of room for improvement Our Guest today is one can Hackenberg one of the founders of synaos a start-up based in Germany that is building a hardware agnostic intralogistics management platform.

00:00:33: For this conversation I'm joined by my co-host Michael plugin Maya before we get started I would like to mention Our Kind supporters gray orange,

00:00:40: great orange is a leading provider of smart warehouse robots in an AI based White House operating platform called gray matter.

00:00:47: The many companies including Ikea and you ask used to manage their warehouse and fulfillment operations.

00:00:53: If you're in the market for a system like that I strongly recommend you have a look at gray orange.com.

00:00:58: All right and now we're on to the show enjoy hello Wolfgang welcome to the logistics Drive thanks for being on the program

00:01:06: I'm very happy to be here thank you very much awesome and I'm joined today by my co-host Marco this is one of the rare times we're doing a conversation together

00:01:13: it's not so often but not so often to be ready and you honored here you could own it yeah her special edition and we're live that's another sort of exception.

00:01:22: Because we are at the I-4 Awards and Dortmund we're going to share some insights into what that actually is but it's the perfect venue to discuss what we're going to discuss today which is all around.

00:01:32: How to eliminate the chaos that happens when you have a large intralogistics operation and how to bring some some structure and some organizing functions into it so.

00:01:41: Before we get started give us a quick pitch of who you are and what scenarios is doing but yeah and the nutshell short pitch yeah of course yeah and Wolfgang I'm one of the three founders of the scenarios we found a 2018 in Hanover.

00:01:55: We are an intralogistics startup our solution is intralogistics management platform saw an integrated software platform yeah orchestrating monitoring and optimizing everything all the material flows,

00:02:07: endure from door to door so from from

00:02:10: in coming to outcoming flows and that means we orchestrating mobile robots and mainly guided Vehicles like taco trains or forklifts

00:02:18: but also connection to the infrastructure so storage or conveyor belt or traffic lights or something like that and of course and two people okay so we have apps in.

00:02:29: Being in contact and couldn't communicating with people with Pickers for example and everything is

00:02:34: bind it together and with an optimization approach okay so there's a lot there that we got some character so yeah Marco it was too short as far as I know

00:02:46: as myself actually you had a kind of a background in automotive industry can you tell us a little bit about that yes I was with the big OEM I was responsible there for like.

00:02:57: What 10 years I wrote my PhD thesis there I.

00:03:00: Did some assisting jobs there and then I took over shop flighty and Industry 4.0 always out of the idea but the IT department that was very important because.

00:03:09: We had two knobs we are software company okay we are not dealing well with dealing with Hardware but we're not producing are offering Hardware okay so we are we are believe that there will be a separation in the market

00:03:19: between hardware and embedded software and really back and software really big scalable back and software AI driven software so that's where we coming from that well.

00:03:28: When in my whole professional career like was always an IT department so so today it's actually you're the perfect playground that you're experiencing you today we're at the eye for awards or the eye for testing data should say so I for those that don't know from the audience.

00:03:42: It's International forklift and intralogistics of the of the year so what that basically is a testing days is a bunch of different,

00:03:51: manufacturers of a MRSA TVs forklift you name it Goods the person e-commerce robots all sort of mesh together in an actual match,

00:03:59: so they're all in this big Hall together and they all communicate and they all doing their thing.

00:04:03: So this is having for you right this is what you've imagined exactly it's all about that and a couple of years ago the the the.

00:04:12: Video and vdm a so-so the underlying organizations that is cited so the automotive industry and the,

00:04:19: manufacturers incited to put in a standard okay they're called video a 50-50 that's an that's a it's in standard interface for mobile robots so AMR is an ATVs really separating what I just said separating

00:04:31: hot we're in embedded software from back and software because Fleetwood became bigger

00:04:36: intralogistics that has become more complex and you just need more flexibility there to combine different types of Hardware okay and have bigger fleets okay and they call that interface video a 50 ovd a 50/50,

00:04:48: and this is what the testing days I hear all about so there's a fleet of seven different Hardware providers where we had announced we all orchestrating them together in one layout and they doing different tasks that pick up stuff we have

00:05:00: area where a Mrs can show their free freely Ike

00:05:04: maneuvering capabilities and then they come back into a more strict optimization optimized

00:05:11: the grid Network and and so there's a lot of stuff in there so it's really great to be here yeah it's take us back maybe to the situation where you realized okay there's a there's an issue here there's a problem that in the world that needs to be solved what was the situation like when you started scenarios.

00:05:25: Yes so we are coming from a from a from a background where where I did like I said I did a lot of like intralogistics and Industry 4.0 optimization projects with a big OEM and we saw that.

00:05:37: That algorithms used or optimization approaches use Force pretty much outdated that was pretty much step-by-step planning and all that stuff so we developed an idea of like in.

00:05:47: Yeah algorithm AI driven optimization protest optimizes everything in a factory and a warehouse of the future okay and.

00:05:55: Then we understood we need to follow that dream step by step mom said intralogistics is the first big step in that and we went into intralogistics and realize they're that that of course optimization is a big problem but integration is a

00:06:07: Big Challenge as well and then the vda fifty-fifty interface came up we kind of worked on it from our side as well and.

00:06:16: For my understanding but we became the market leader there really really really orchestrating a lot of big fleets of different different ATVs there

00:06:24: and AMR is and from now on we are like in the moment we have we orchestrating the biggest project in the in the market like 50 60 ATVs and one Fleet different vendors Tucker trains and all that,

00:06:37: integrated yeah but if you talk to sort of the vendors of similar systems that's been out there for ten years whatever.

00:06:45: Warehouse management systems an Erp system so forth.

00:06:48: They all say well what's the issue I mean we have the solutions this does exist already where do you come in where do you really,

00:06:55: draw the boundary where is this sort of really revolutionary new what you do okay

00:07:00: it's not about there's a pretty clear-cut we are below Erp WMS warehouse management systems so what we are doing is we are doing an optimal,

00:07:11: like allocation of resources and orders constantly with optimization approach that's where we come in and we do it in a very fine and.

00:07:19: Yeah very detailed approach okay so what we are doing we call this continuous Rhythm optimization we always take

00:07:26: the whole resource pool and the whole order pool and match it together okay and looking we're not doing it

00:07:31: but with the step-by-step approach where you have good Solutions at the beginning and then very bad solution at the end but we always taking everything into account

00:07:39: and and finding like the optimal solution globally okay so that's what we're looking for Global Optima so we're calculating up to 250,000 Solutions per second,

00:07:47: okay and if you bore a step in front of one of our it's these operated By Us in that second we have a new solution calculated you have no emergency processes or anything like that and and I think this is something we offer on a

00:08:00: on the which is pretty new to the market in addition

00:08:03: like I said we are leading with the video a 50-50 we are cloud based yeah so we offering our solution for example the e-commerce world as a solution or private Cloud solution so very.

00:08:14: Not plucking produce yet but on the way to pluck and produce and optimize as I said and.

00:08:21: And fully scalable okay so we assimilating and there was kind of a task of 10 AM simulating fleas up to two or three hundred.

00:08:29: It's visa and one layout optimized and really totally flexible okay

00:08:33: with new routing or something happens and traffic management all that Wolfgang you mentioned the to routing and to play over-planning basically other the standing a very short cycle time.

00:08:45: Is that also where a i comes into play or maybe you can take us a little bit more into that house.

00:08:53: What kind of AI is it what are you doing there so far as you want to tell ya there's no problem I mean I mean.

00:09:01: There's different I would a certain areas of AI and I don't want to talk about AI now in great depth but.

00:09:07: There's a world of kind of machine or deep learning okay and we use that as well for example for energy management or traffic management to learn which treats occupied at certain times okay but what we mostly doing is we are we using

00:09:20: mathematical optimization so heuristics metaheuristics to constantly kind of optimize

00:09:26: the the match between resources and daughters okay and this is what we what we do so our often per second and we always looking in.

00:09:33: If we try to break out of local optimal going into optimal localized so we use method like simulated annealing and stuff like that so so this is what we are doing on from an optimization.

00:09:44: Point are you using gpus or CPUs to do that or oh I know this is yeah this is this isn't this is a very common question our our we're doing it we doing it in the cloud in the back end but also in the cloud you can use.

00:09:57: Gpus or CCP use regular this is not that and this is this is this is It's always asked for for how much data or how much connected how bandwidth.

00:10:08: I need for for problems like that but what we what we are doing is we not taking pictures and sending to a cloud but we're taking a very big stages like is that traffic light red or green or his dad.

00:10:19: Gate open or closed or is that a traffic jam or is their nose is there a lot of traffic as and this is kind of very very simple it's goes over an amputee interface so it's very

00:10:28: lean and we've calculated in back at its data bandwidth it's not that use no problem and no need for gpus on that you you can oh no it's not like transferring kind of.

00:10:39: Pictures and then kind of depriving pictures I'm like that now but.

00:10:44: As I understood it it's much more than only guiding the ATVs right because your

00:10:50: actually your vision is to to optimize the whole Factory at the end I would including the machineries and to drop off points and two gates that are in the way or,

00:11:02: has to be opened or closed and so so so machineries are not in our current scope because I kind of as a new world I mean we have algorithms in place where we can optimize machineries and Logistics to bring

00:11:14: both together but right now we're really concentrating on intralogistics so this is this is what we do but to optimize and to steer and monitor intralogistics you need of course,

00:11:23: connection to the infrastructure okay so you need to know whether or not the gate is open more with the escalators there or or.

00:11:31: If you go into e-commerce whether there's a conveyor belt that that is that have to kind of connect our

00:11:36: storage with put the stuff and so we need a desk there's a connection to the infrastructure but not to machines to kind of to schedule machine scheduling that's not in scope right now

00:11:47: but all of the manufacturers of the different Vehicles they all typically come with their own management system right so they have their own operating system.

00:11:56: And you come into the factory or you come into the logistics operation and you have these different these different ATVs and to save and RMR soon the thing and they all connected to their respective platforms.

00:12:07: Now you show up how does what happens to the old systems how does it does it replace it talk to me about how this this whole your platform fits into the overall picture of things yeah well.

00:12:19: First of all you have to say the landscape there is pretty heterogeneous okay there are

00:12:23: there are some companies that are pretty hot we're driven they're buying something from from a third company to do the software on board and in the back end and then there are companies which invested heavily into that as well yeah so so they are they are kind of.

00:12:38: On their own software in the on-deck ends back and solution and then there's some some companies that don't even have them back in solution which are very kind of very simple and very,

00:12:47: yeah solid and they're going for a different project type okay so that all these come together of course we have different techniques in the ATVs and a Mars as well okay if those

00:12:57: virtually lying guided and physically lion guard in all this so This Very heterogeneous that landscape okay and the reactions.

00:13:06: Are different to be honest okay of course and what you have to understand is that there is a big pie of of Revenue in that market that is growing.

00:13:16: Fast okay which is which in which in a mobile robot provider can still participate on okay what we are doing is only one thing and one thing only is

00:13:26: back and software okay there is maintenance there's of course Hardware this project management there's all the simulations all that stuff,

00:13:33: where we where we are kind of not fully alike we are not integrated into okay we doing some simulation of course this is.

00:13:40: Different thing but all the other stuff I just named we are not doing and so there's a there's a coexistent and and a lot of hardware.

00:13:49: Hardware kind of providers vendors understood that.

00:13:54: The video a 50-50 interface is really bringing that whole yeah project management and and.

00:14:01: Mobile robot projects ready to a more professional level okay and on a better professional you can just sell more stuff okay it's scaling fast and they can skate.

00:14:11: Sell more of the stuff what they are very good at and often it's about Hardware project management about processes about being on the shop floor all that stuff and we are providing the back and software but there are some which are kind of reluctant I mean we have.

00:14:25: I would say around 2025.

00:14:28: How are Partners already on boarded on the video a 50/50 and not all of them are public some of them say I don't want to talk about it and what would still making project because I mean we have.

00:14:38: I mean this is I mean this is public we have the,

00:14:41: VW group as a customer we have the test group now as a customer okay and these be customers for example with other customers well but these customers are just say,

00:14:50: video 50/50 is the way to go and if you want to sell Hardware here you have to be yeah you have to use that and you have to have to have to be compliant with that

00:14:59: and I think from what I see in the market the number is really growing of customers that actually set this as a.

00:15:07: Requisite it's you either comply to VD a 50/50 or you're not in the game is that something that you also experience yes.

00:15:18: This is this is the way forward I mean customers are there on totally different levels okay I mean there is some.

00:15:26: Would just make the first experience with with mobile robots Okay and of course they I mean there's different ways to go okay I mean can I give me five.

00:15:34: Three ATVs going in circle like this a lot of solutions how to do it okay but we think of course it's the best way to really.

00:15:41: Already at the small food start with in very professional back and software to be really ready to scale okay and later level because it's always very hard to change it later on and this is that actually something that you also experienced that

00:15:53: some customers start with the propriety fleet manager from some company and then they they grow and do the need in.

00:16:03: Getting in other robots starts growing and then they see okay we have to look for a another layer here is that something also that you this is this is the

00:16:14: this is the classical way to be honest I mean this is where this is what we experience in our Korean well perhaps

00:16:19: where we coming from a very very early and this is exactly what's happening I mean you can you can automate in the body shop,

00:16:27: for for relations of something and then you need another 10 and and and you just need addition capability in the hardware and then you have it you have to go to a different vendor and then you say oh they can't drive in the same layout

00:16:38: you just can't do the optimization so you need a you need a layout there so this is a very typical way to go into

00:16:45: or what's a very typical way to go into a project that they start and they kind of.

00:16:50: Hit the ceiling and they say what to do with and then it's very important now did you did you was your quote was what's a video a 50-50 included in your quote because if yes.

00:17:00: You can switch to a different back-end system for example as you now see if not you really have a problem because retrofitting,

00:17:07: Branch field project in the mobile robot worked super difficult because you have all that working council stuff and all that.

00:17:17: Maybe security and safety stuff shut down here operations for some time because you have to rent no it's a good moment to pause for a second we've thrown around the term video video a 50-50 multiple times now.

00:17:30: Can you explain to me I mean you have the two experts maybe one of you can explain.

00:17:34: What the standard is currently capable of doing and where the boundaries are I mean it sounds you mentioning it as a pen Akia as a sort of Holy Grail is the solution for everything but clearly there's there's limitations to what this thing can do

00:17:46: maybe can you describe what it can and what it cannot do okay yeah well thanks for us.

00:17:51: Um so the vda 50/50 standard was developed like over the last couple of years and.

00:17:57: It has different I mean it's a very open standard okay it's a technical standard and.

00:18:02: And allows like I said virtually lying guided am are so very freely

00:18:08: operating and and driving vehicles and

00:18:12: um very kind of land guided okay so next kinetic line guided sprinkles everything is included there it's it's pretty much made for virtually Lang guided vehicles.

00:18:23: And the first kind of part was and that's kind of implemented now and was kind of.

00:18:29: Not redone but but little bit improved over the last couple of months but the first part is really about driving and actions.

00:18:35: Okay so there is a standard in there how to drive it's about base in Horizon how I.

00:18:43: Drive on my grid network with notes and and and lions and.

00:18:49: Then there's a bolt action sosososo pick up action drop off action and all that stuff so this is what kind of standardized in the first step and now there is kind of a movement and.

00:18:58: That will be the next big step is about map management okay so this is the next big thing because now those projects become more and more they become their become bigger and and.

00:19:08: Dealing with the map really putting the map into the system and.

00:19:12: And yeah kind of creating the map at the beginning that's kind of a thing that's kind of a lot of work and it's done very differently between the different Hardware vendors and this will be the next step to be to be standardized in the video 50/50.

00:19:23: Yeah so in a say it's obviously a German Association that that sort of standardized this the standard.

00:19:30: How German Focus whole German Centric is the whole thing meaning you know what if some significant players from Asia come into the market or the US.

00:19:40: How Global do you consider the standard or are they competing standards that compete with the standard what's the well take this a I would say I would say introduced against the German in German industry has a very strong position so there is a.

00:19:54: There's a push into other markets in Europe it's I'm doing a lot of projects and vda 50/50 is kind of set there and from the Asian market I feel a very openness to really.

00:20:05: Incorporate that standard so they're very open because of course they want to do business here and sell stuff and so so this is nothing and in the US there's a very similar standard and.

00:20:15: Some people say.

00:20:16: They kind of looked at the video a 50-50 stand out there a little bit later a little bit behind I would say from TimeWise it's called My standard I'm a standard so so it's.

00:20:27: What my experts say it's 80% the same and then they added some stuff so so there's the same movement there in the US as well so to I think globally there will be two or three standards which is totally fine and this is pretty much spreading because we have us customers.

00:20:41: I'm asking about the video 5050 as well so it's not that that nothing like that is over there so it's spreading around the world I would say hmm and if I may add to that I mean it's an open standard everybody can.

00:20:54: The technology is there it's based on Json files and

00:20:58: the script files basically how to exchange messages and also mqtt so every

00:21:08: buddy can that can adapt adopted what is sometimes criticized is.

00:21:14: Not everything is in there yet because as you mentioned was gonna answer my question where the boundaries are where are the limits are in there yeah

00:21:23: but the good thing on the other side it's it's it's a standard there is a there is a circle

00:21:31: to make the decisions for that in the vdm A and did we in the vda and.

00:21:37: And there are rules how to adapt a standard and so on so it's probably this is a little bit slower if one guy would actually code something on his own yeah but then it's.

00:21:51: On the other hand there are there is a multiple I jack so so multiple companies are taking a look at it and see if they can live with that and.

00:22:02: Step by step it will be it will evolve that's that's what I think and what.

00:22:08: Yeah what I see so far yeah maybe it's next step for the conversation Marco I mean you've heard everything that wolf consent now let's just assume.

00:22:16: You've run Logistics operations if you have W for example.

00:22:21: And vendors like Wolfgang and others have shown up and making similar promises what are some of the key questions that you would answer what are some of the Christians are what where is the.

00:22:31: How do you find fault like what kind of questions would you ask.

00:22:34: To make sure because it sounds fantastic I thought he describes it sounds like a no-brainer you know it's here too you know just just do it like what thought trust technical to this the most important thing is how easy and how many different vehicles

00:22:49: can I adapt and robots can I adapt in the in this layer because that's at the end the most important because,

00:22:57: as we already mentioned there will be a new task I don't know you might want to flip some pallets or whatever and at some.

00:23:07: Some stage there will be a robot doing this task and then I want to integrate them as a as a somebody in logistics operations and then I would,

00:23:17: ask what's going you cannot do that with soon owsla and if the answer is yes then it's a good thing and I was actually very impressed about the 25,

00:23:29: different-- robot types that.

00:23:30: Are already included over the really a 50/50 standard yeah and another question would actually be on the you mentioned.

00:23:40: That the standard is more adapted actually right now to the agv world let's say nodes and what does it lines the lines here and.

00:23:53: It's how do it is he right how do you see the evolvement in regarding a Mars that don't

00:24:02: basically don't have HSN edges and so to most to answer your question and answer you with the first part I think this is of course a question how quick,

00:24:15: can you can you kind of onboard different Hardware vendors and and like I said we have really,

00:24:20: it's a matter of days or weeks now depends a little on the side of the project but it's it's really quick especially if we already on board them or did project with them before then it's really kind of super quick okay so this is kind of.

00:24:33: Pretty much salt that would say if you go down there on the test area and it's solved it's a very important discussion we have with our customers is also,

00:24:42: it's about stability okay because of course in especially in the in the OEM world in the automotive world.

00:24:49: If you have a down time or five or six minutes or three minutes even you lose production loose car okay on this is kind of this.

00:24:56: Should never happen Okay so this is something from a project you that people are think of kids great to have optimization it's great to have all that flexibility with my Hardware to even the vendor strategy to buy different however for different capabilities.

00:25:09: But I can't lose cars so this is a very important thing and you have to prove that as well and I think we are kind of doing that with really big projects in the in the automotive industry.

00:25:19: But this is of course a thing where the standing everything re had to be shaped over the last couple of years and month to be re become so stable and become a industry standard,

00:25:29: okay so this is regarding your first question second question was a Mars amr's was ATVs yeah thank you so so I mean this is kind of.

00:25:39: This is something we are doing pretty much yeah

00:25:42: this is pretty new I would say to the standard now over the last kind of month a year okay but you can see down on the test area we have an area where free and navigation is possible okay where we agree kind of giving

00:25:55: nodes and edges and a very wide a devil and we give an action down there that the amr's are free

00:26:01: to maneuver freely okay and then they can we show that down there on the test area they can move around an object so the line goes through an object through an obstacle okay and these ATVs it which are capable of doing that maneuver around it but it's very important.

00:26:15: You have to steer and which areas that is allowed or not because if you,

00:26:19: if you for example that in everywhere you just it's just crazy I mean you have bi-directional Street and Neymar goes around and the forklift Cotton Patch okay there's nothing then you have then you have the downtime there and

00:26:30: the five percent more efficiency of from the name are hep C nothing if you haven't gone time of an hour so this we have to be very careful with

00:26:37: we are to allow that and which surrounding for example warehouses.

00:26:41: Logistics for example it's way more flexibility it's possible so they were more flexible so it's in an automotive production it's probably

00:26:49: little bit tougher there so of course you have to be careful where to allow it and we're not so yeah but then it's actually to a certain degree it's already included yes of course I mean this is this is this is where we going and

00:27:02: okay and we're doing it in like a productive project as well so we have those those.

00:27:09: Some of the partners down there I really encourage the unbounded and big OEM projects okay if you are integrating a new.

00:27:17: Custom alerts with the vda 50/50 standard who is paying for that.

00:27:22: Are you helping them or are they doing it you helping assisting or are you doing it and you get.

00:27:31: Fold over well everything we have every minute it really depends I mean if we can come off on board some of the Hardware's on Hardware vendors on.

00:27:41: I also read and then.

00:27:43: Customers come up and say you have to work with that company so they pay us a little bit for it but we have a very structured approach so so so.

00:27:52: When they come to to the nails to to get on board it and we give them kind of a documentation yeah which which kind of.

00:28:00: Specifies the video a 50/50 because there are some some things that can be interpreted one way or the other and say this is the way we do it okay and then we give them an interface with a consent test.

00:28:12: The messages back and forth to to to solidfire there the message State and then they get get like an inn

00:28:19: that's instant from us so so so in some Cloud instance from us toasted in Ireland in AWS and they can just drive their vehicles around in their own test area

00:28:28: and and get on board and then we are ready and then we go to the customer so this is kind of the step-by-step approach and we have to.

00:28:34: Ten steps on the more detailed level 2 is so is there a final check on okay now that's the final check

00:28:41: if the vehicle is ready with the a 50/50 ready or something so yeah we have we have kind of we have kind of a checklist there with with like 10 steps and then,

00:28:50: you need all 10 sets for the last couple of steps are always then in the concrete kind of.

00:28:55: Customers around and would cost then something like map integration and map uploads and stuff comes in okay and this is what this other final steps okay this you can do that on the test area but it's kind of the real test is when you get that real layout and you drive them first time so

00:29:09: so on but then they are on board.

00:29:10: Yeah how much of this system is autonomous and how much of it needs to be monitored by a person I saw some down there you and your display area at like pictus big screens and,

00:29:20: beautiful animations and sort of real-time movements of vehicles and so forth and a person screening and doing talk to me about how.

00:29:27: How much of the system actually works by itself and you just leave it alone and it's does its thing we calculate so forth versus some person having to interact and doing making decisions interacting good question so so so our vision okay is to really,

00:29:42: not to have a black Factory or black Warehouse something where nobody works anymore but to really.

00:29:48: Ultimate as much as you can okay to really give the guys in the control centers.

00:29:53: The information then they need in a very yeah ux design front end okay very very clean and very yeah focused and to help them to

00:30:05: to always have a very stable and optimized State okay to operate operate from okay so this is the division where we were aiming at and we are kind of.

00:30:13: We are partly there but of course everybody the whole process is in the hole.

00:30:17: Things had they have to kind of be established and have to be learned so so so so I think we are offering Solutions we are kind of like I said we always calculating new Solutions and and optimizing the resource order,

00:30:30: relation but there is a lot of stuff already still which which humans need to be in to interact okay if I mean something,

00:30:37: really falls down on the street and you have no aymara or no no aim our capability allowed their then somebody needs to go there and check that okay so it's it's.

00:30:47: It's about a vision but it's also about beauty being practical and getting projects done today and today it still

00:30:53: really people interacting with the system and seeing problems and and and going down to the shop floor and and solving stuff so there's still big part of it but didn't go to you Joe we will have to clean up.

00:31:04: AMR is that will again wow perhaps I mean I mean I mean that's but it's a development okay I mean this is like.

00:31:13: I mean there's a whole industry and we still I mean still we get big customers and they have two or three ATVs in the factories,

00:31:22: they're just learning to work with them and and they need to get acquainted to that whole thing okay this is a step coming from forklift driven World okay we can do pretty much everything okay and every you have a problem solver on every

00:31:35: every every transport unit at which can step down do stuff interact and and then you have that strict agv world where you where you kind of.

00:31:44: Um yeah kind of RI have to have really process processes in place which which have to be followed by and.

00:31:53: If you if you park in like a.

00:31:55: Your car in front into the street and then fault of just goes around and she will stop and you have to just re-park the the vehicle or stuff like that okay and this is I mean.

00:32:04: To make another step this is why we say you have to incorporate many of the guided Vehicles as way on this is kind of one thing.

00:32:12: Other big thing here at the eye for test days in a ward where we where we had with our vehicle localization for manually.

00:32:19: Guided Vehicles where we say we can incorporate both worlds in one optimization and and monitoring and controlling world this is what we doing here.

00:32:28: Okay how do you envision the future of the mash-up is this something that will stay for.

00:32:36: Longer time or is it what's the plan on that well I mean I think.

00:32:42: As always you have to push the limit and the boundaries there and and I think it will stay for a couple of years at and it's my my my idea here and because they're going to be that's going to be a development and.

00:32:55: I mean we now we have the first kind of mobile robots with like an armor nitpicking stuff and doing stuff and solve something like that will perhaps increase and.

00:33:03: We were how we have well forklifts and some other numbers for clothes for example in the future so so there's there's a lot of potential still there so I think there's enough.

00:33:12: From My Sight now for a couple of years to still have that mesh up and show the progress for in the market but I think at some point this will become just broad commodity and I think then

00:33:23: perhaps it's you don't have to show it at the at the at the Eiffel W anymore but.

00:33:28: I can look at the future for five or six years as we learned with within uh I don't know and it and there will be a long time of a transition where there's going to be a sort of manual.

00:33:37: Analog systems working side-by-side with with autonomous staff.

00:33:41: And how talk to us about how you make these two worlds come together and how do you integrate both like what ones what are some of the challenges as you integrate

00:33:51: the analog forklift driver or other people that are just roaming around yes people do yeah so what we do is we kind of right now we're bringing our approach into different Industries okay

00:34:03: with the agv part we talked about today already but also with our optimization and part for example in e-commerce where we say we can

00:34:11: optimization approach helps and that process quality and approach we have from Automotive really bring into e-commerce

00:34:18: we optimizing storage and pictures and everything on a different level and many guided Vehicles so Target trains are forklifts are very important that world as well as well okay and what we are introduced here is it's a new

00:34:31: yeah low-cost localization solution okay because today the problem is only a very small number of them

00:34:40: I heard three to five percent of the of the of the forklifts in the world is localized okay why is that because

00:34:46: um Solutions are very expensive okay if you if you put a Layla's on their of you if you used for example yeah if you have to invest into the infrastructure with rather Altra wide band or something that's very very expensive and

00:34:59: what we are offering here with vehicle localization with our solution it's a little box that you can mount Brownfield or Greenfield on your on your.

00:35:07: Forklift has a couple of cameras in it and it uses yeah.

00:35:13: Visual odometry Source or sender technique to to localized within the,

00:35:18: within the perimeter So within the warehouse or the factory so in this really lost the cost by.

00:35:24: Haiti 90% from from other Industries and this is really something we can put on every

00:35:29: when all the forklifts okay and this is off-the-shelf hardware you're acquiring from somewhere else that uses Justice is cameras and even have a GPS location of the antenna and there but it's it's a camera and Camera needs text okay cue our text

00:35:44: every couple of hundred meters which which are which are positioned on the walls or something okay and if the camera sees that.

00:35:51: The tech is has a global position okay gone to a couple of centimeters and then it tracks frame-by-frame the trajectory of the of the car and you as always the the the kind of the position the localization.

00:36:04: Up to a couple of centimeters exact endure okay and then after a couple of hundred meters

00:36:09: you you see a attack again a cue awkward at the wall and you have a global position again and this really kind of is a very cheap like a deuce solution we offering localization as a service means updates over the air,

00:36:22: um

00:36:23: Cloud infrastructure monitoring and visualization and this is kind of the world really then we can incorporate all the men in the guided Vehicles the target range and forklift into our optimization approach and of course then there's a great scenarios okay because I mean,

00:36:38: for example you have 20 ATVs going and in Christmas you can just throw in 20 a forklift and you can just optimize them together or a student together this is just,

00:36:46: this is the future I think and it's very interesting because that's actually almost always the problem because the human jumps in with some vehicle and destroys the process.

00:36:57: Um but can you give us some rough month pricing estimation on that or it does it come with.

00:37:06: If you connect to soon as then you you get it or well what's the plan well we are just at the bit.

00:37:12: We are just at the beginning okay so so so we haven't even decided whether or not to to sell it to stand alone or not we have first customers now its certification process is started.

00:37:21: First first first units are sold okay.

00:37:24: So it's in the range between one or two thousand Euros per year so it's very low cost to really really.

00:37:32: Yeah allow a broad spread through the industry to really get big chocolate fleets their localized and then really I mean.

00:37:41: With that camera on their you there's so much more you can do but we just want the local the position first yeah but just for my understanding so your system.

00:37:49: As a scholarly designed what is the replacing or is in addition to other system or is it actually replacing small existing system it's replacing,

00:37:57: vendor specific control stations today okay and when we talk about.

00:38:02: The mobile robot word this is where we what we are replacing which is kind of a cost-saving factor for our customers as well because you don't need,

00:38:09: three or four systems for example you just need one system okay that's us and we can we can see all the different Hardware so this is kind of a system we have replacing yeah do the customers that have existing systems,

00:38:21: pay for the hot the software part was it typically bundled in with the hardware from the other vendors.

00:38:26: What do you think saving cost I'm thinking okay yeah this is this is kind of a difficult thing because of course often it's bundled in and and the hardware is sold for 4,000 bucks a year or something like that something like that okay so,

00:38:40: so this is kind of kind of stuff because really what is happening I mean Global overall like two stories up here and the helicopter okay it's kind of.

00:38:49: You have to look on Logistics and production different different way if you stay in the old world okay always looking from the hardware World always,

00:38:57: always looking from what's we can grab and tangible or stuff like that okay you're not going to go anywhere because the potential is in the software okay so you have to.

00:39:06: To cherish the potential of the sovereignty of to pay for the potential of the software but if you so so hot with driven as the industry is today okay especially not a motive.

00:39:16: It's really tough to to see the value at a software brings in there so but in that that world of

00:39:23: kind of killing those those control stations which are kind of anyhow very limited and only serving 11 vendor this really shows a vertical

00:39:31: kind of value at where you can say the software really helps me to to save money and then there's a willingness to pay for that yeah and as a as a fair statement is there anything that a.

00:39:43: The software that comes with a typical Hardware can today do better than your system would do.

00:39:48: Is there anything that that is sort of off limits or where your boundaries are the typically the system that comes.

00:39:55: Maybe it's a proprietary I mean oh yeah well tell me well these guys I mean these guys often developed software of the last 20 years,

00:40:02: with 10 guys something something like that for their own Hardware of course it was kind of hard to get in there and have the same standard from the beginning but we have vendors which kind of.

00:40:12: Year ago something criticized my Hardware is driving better with my back-end software but we convinced them I mean this is.

00:40:19: Of course the out there is a million solutions for 410 million problems okay so so there's always something we don't have Incorporated so far now back-end system and,

00:40:28: this will stay for a longer time but the big things OK the energy management traffic management asset control so so so statistics all that stuff I think we solved.

00:40:39: On the on a pretty good level and we are I think ahead of the market in a lot of.

00:40:46: A lot of areas as well so we might might lack a couple of little things but I think on the big things we are kind of setting new Mac market Standard there

00:40:54: yeah so you're a bunch of folks from Hanover Germany and you got like six million seed funding,

00:41:01: like how hard is it for somebody who really come in there and like just eat your lunch and just do it better than you you've done well at least I think that's super hard I mean wouldn't you know this oh no try us I mean I'm a big players are trying.

00:41:15: It's just I mean you have to hire the people you have to have the vision you have to have the right setting from the beginning of okay this is this is not not this is not I mean I don't say it's can never be done again but I know that,

00:41:26: players are really struggling because if you.

00:41:30: Try this is kind of the the DNA of the industry if you try to to look on on short-term and arrow is and I can only invest,

00:41:40: for a year and then it has to come back as something you're not going to develop a new solution like we did,

00:41:44: you have to be kind of really finance and and really have a big vision and start developing and you just you just talked about all seat financing I mean much more money went into that okay and and we're talking about a very.

00:41:57: Very big big pot of money like a big amount of money we invested into that solution yeah two-digit million.

00:42:08: At least yeah to really to really to really create that and I mean you have to find somebody to take the risk and do so because I think we started three years ago and kind of you have to have to catch up and we are over 100 people,

00:42:21: and even the bigger players okay in the market do not have that much people in that specific area when we have 100 people.

00:42:29: Yeah trying and working on the clicks get up there yeah nice trying to work on a on a working on a.

00:42:37: Intralogistics management platform to orchestrate the thing to those who advise a Mars mobile robots and.

00:42:45: I don't think there's a lot of players in the market investing that much into it

00:42:47: yeah so traditionally you know developing software and software platforms isn't German strong suit it has other company there's other countries and

00:42:54: so the community doing better we can show them you're capable of doing yeah I like it I like a lot is it hard to get

00:42:59: the right people and Hannah before or are you good hiring globally are you aware you hiring reload first or how you doing hiring globally now we're ramping up offices in Berlin Munich as well now we're trying that out to to really get.

00:43:11: A talent there but Hanover is a good place to hire people I mean I mean there's a lot of people out there and I mean this is.

00:43:17: This is the kind of you yeah you have to of course we have to have the right vision and the right mindset.

00:43:22: And and you have to have the right algorithm but you have to coat the stuff as well and then people who are capable of doing that as well I mean this is what's kind of

00:43:30: I was sitting there and my two co-founders I mean they wrote their PHD thesis and that area and we came together said like why is nobody using modern technology Cloud technology those algorithms which are out there which are now kind of available through that new tech

00:43:44: Cloud technology why is that for anybody who and the difference there was we not only set that and said I some you should do something that we said like let's try it.

00:43:53: And we just tried it and,

00:43:55: whistle trying let's see ya so what's your vision talk to me about how you look like in five years when we reconvene here at the testing days 2027.

00:44:04: Wow didn't we learn that that in those days and these days five years is something a time span where we can't look into I mean I don't know we want to grow yeah we really want to revolutionize that industry okay want to spread that technology into a different,

00:44:18: parts and different Industries like I said the manually guided vehicle world the.

00:44:23: For example e-commerce world where houses so so we want to grow yeah we really want to take the technology to a different level and have a lot of customers out there.

00:44:31: Yeah and right now it's mostly focused on Germany or Europe or you already have Toby of customers know we have first first customers from DS now so we our ideas to go to the s next step.

00:44:41: So yeah,

00:44:42: we have grown classic awesome yeah great story with ganga and I think it's a reasonable approach because you didn't you didn't care about Hardware actually Europe you software company and,

00:44:57: and now bringing in all the connections via.

00:45:01: A standard that is evolving also to say but let me say that that this wasn't super hard way to do it okay because the first couple of years I mean everybody around us I mean there's a lot of integrated solution out there which say we invest into the backend.

00:45:14: And reinvest into the hardware okay like I said our ideas to be really premium in in hardware and back and this is pretty much impossible I mean there's.

00:45:24: In the in the in the in the in the in the customer world there's one big player out there we know them yeah but they can do it Apple but but but redoing it on a big level it's.

00:45:34: It's really tough to do and the first couple of years it was really hard because we.

00:45:39: Didn't have any own hot we're okay we can just drive around and do a quick fix with we always said the only way to communicate the video 50/50 this made us very very,

00:45:49: very kind of discipline there and now it kind of we are kind of getting from that his yeah pays back of course but but but at the beginning was pretty tough so so but now we're like I said and solution will be a lot of how we apply as we can

00:46:01: go out there we can ramp up quick up a quick POC or something we can show it to the customer no problem no at the beginning super tough.

00:46:07: Okay what we are always asking at this point is how do you imagine Logistics as a whole in

00:46:16: ten years he didn't want to answer the fighter Crush now you come with the to 10 you're crazy wow I would say the same thing like I said we're getting a lot said the middle.

00:46:28: Like what we will see now is also due to drones

00:46:33: well well well I think I mean what you see at the the car that you have if you're shifting from Hardware Focus From A spicemaster dreams but must talk to software software driven world,

00:46:47: the same will happen in logistics and and some parts some parts of some Industries are far farther ahead than others

00:46:54: but this I think it will be a momentum shift okay and and in 10 years.

00:46:58: It has to be black and reduce I mean you have a system in then you have a platform in there you throw in that that robot

00:47:05: it connect downloads the map downloads the the software needed for the thing and its operating within an hour's that has to happen in 10 years

00:47:12: that's the vision great that's great final word both going thanks very much for being on the program was all thank you very much it was great to be here thank you I really enjoyed it take care.

00:47:21: All right that was the logistics try podcast episode with voice gang Hackenberg from synaos I hope you enjoyed Today's show if so make sure you subscribe to the podcast you don't miss any of the future episodes

00:47:33: I'm bored so I can dry out until next time.