The Present and Future of Intralogistics Automation and Standards (Steffen Bersch, CEO, SSI Schäfer)

00:00:01: Hello and welcome to the logistics tribe I'm boys felgendreher found off the judges 6 tribe and today's guest on the program is Stephen bersch

00:00:13: CEO of SSI schäfer as I shave as a big Global player in the area of modular warehousing Logistics Solutions,

00:00:20: it was founded in Germany in 1937 and today operates across six continents with more than 10,000 500 employees

00:00:29: Steffen was also recently elected as the new chairman of the vdm a Materials Handling intralogistics a Association which has more than 240 member companies

00:00:37: he succeeds Gordon risky the former CEO of Kion who has also been a guest on the logistics try podcast before today's episode is hosted by Marco Polo Maya.

00:00:46: Before we get started a quick thanks to our supporters grey orange going orange automates Warehouse operations through a combination of AI software and autonomous mobile robots.

00:00:56: Great Orion systems are in place at some very prominent companies such as Ikea or the Danish household goods and Furniture retailer yes.

00:01:03: If you're looking to get your warehouse and fulfillment operations to the next level with the help of autonomous robots and automation.

00:01:09: You should definitely have great orange on your list check them out at gray orange.com.

00:01:14: All right and now we're on to the show which definite bersch the CEO of SSI Shiva enjoy

00:01:20: hi Stephen welcome to the logistics drive I'm a cock I'm really delighted to have you here on the show because you are actually the CEO of SSI schäfer

00:01:31: and also the chairman of the vdm a 4-1 special group that's the Materials Handling and intralogistics group and for our listeners abroad,

00:01:42: vdm a is the German engineering Federation or did I miss anything of your duties chef

00:01:51: I believe that the translation of edma into English is always a bit difficult I've always called it the mechanical engineering Association basically in Germany that's right yes SSI schäfer as well as the video May and we are here actually on the side of,

00:02:06: ifoy Awards and we also have to explain that had a little bit that's the international intralogistics and forklift of the year.

00:02:15: Award and we are having also here on the side of this award we are having a so-called agv mashup

00:02:24: let's go a little bit into into that a little bit what is it about Stephen and there was basically the idea of the German automotive industry years ago which you yeah there's no coming with the idea to to

00:02:41: physically have the the platform and the interface where ATVs are working basically in manufacturing sites.

00:02:48: A little bit more aligned and on one platform and I think the vda at that time German automotive industry,

00:02:55: ask the video May can you can you develop a joint interface.

00:03:01: And That Was Then the so-called vda5050 and several.

00:03:06: Agv producers or companies from the industry join forces there,

00:03:12: under the guidance of edma and developed the joint interface so that we are basically independent now from from from the manufacturers of the of the units so that.

00:03:25: All the different units basically listen to One protocol and can help the automotive industry in their tasks.

00:03:33: Yeah I remember that because at that time it was probably five or six years ago I was still with BMW and that time.

00:03:42: And we were

00:03:44: build him or ramping up our am our Fleet in the plants and we were thinking ahead and thinking about what will the future look like with really big fleets of a Mars and the ATVs and working together.

00:03:58: And that's where the vda5050 standard started so.

00:04:04: I'm very always very happy if I see that really coming to life and I think last year was the first.

00:04:12: Step for the mash-up so the first try out of this.

00:04:16: Austin not this year it's going into the second round or the second iteration already already could you describe what are the,

00:04:25: the news now on the standard or how did it evolve now so it's either quite a dozens of companies that are now joined forces and work on that,

00:04:37: interphase what I understand this from the guys that they are now in the third virgin version of the of the software I think what what has been enabled by the by the initiative of the.

00:04:51: Was basically that an industry a whole industry was asked to join forces and to collaborate and to work together.

00:05:00: On a Joint Task and that is of course a great achievement because normally you would always say companies develop on their own do their own protocols but then can't reach scale and at the moment we're an industry,

00:05:14: when soch ton of of participants in the industry,

00:05:18: join forces work on the same plot platform it's a chance for everyone basically to then also scale and to go with their individual applications on there.

00:05:27: Agv developments then basically into into a into a Target industry,

00:05:33: I don't need to discuss details anymore they can all join that that one protocol and that is of course.

00:05:39: A great achievement that has been developed further we can see here in Dortmund at the agv measure.

00:05:45: Basically different applications they all run in one test field together and that's of course very interesting to see yeah it's like a big robot ballet on the shop floor.

00:05:56: I'll taking place and so that means basically you can buy as a customer you can buy any robot and just plug it in,

00:06:05: why are the standard and let it run in your Fleet is that right yeah that would be the aim of course of course whenever we talk engineering whenever we talk about different applications,

00:06:17: there's a little bit more to it but major parts of the of the development are clarified in-1 protocol and then you basically Plug and Play.

00:06:26: Can you feel that already the scaling I think would schäfer you are bundling the agv in am our Fleet within PS Automotion,

00:06:39: can you see that already to scaling now but two more customers two more.

00:06:43: A smaller companies also buying a Mars nowadays yes we will definitely see that I mean it's giving us in cooperation with Ds Automotion the Xs.

00:06:55: To certain customers that we probably in the past would have not been able to approach.

00:07:00: Protecting the automotive industry which is I would always call this a little bit of a closed shop always because it's very standardized of course because they,

00:07:10: need to scale on uncertain Technologies so yes we see.

00:07:14: That for DSL to motion for example that they have that benefits out of that hmm.

00:07:22: Okay just for our listeners last year we were talking with Wolfgang healing a he is the CEO of TS Automotion so whoever wants to listen to that interview,

00:07:35: I can just jump back on that one and see,

00:07:38: what mashup was last year about where do you see the next steps Stephen vendor in the development of the standard.

00:07:48: And am are is in the ATVs in general.

00:07:52: I mean I believe at the end the whole task for for the entire material flow industry or for the intralogistics industry is too.

00:08:03: Come to more end-to-end integration if I may call it like that I means how do we get.

00:08:08: The different information available in the process on one platform so that then.

00:08:14: In the usage in this example of agvs or Mrs information available to improve the productivity of the process of the customer so I think that always has to be the target for for for all of us in this industry.

00:08:27: And we will proceed in SSI schäfer as well as I believe also was and that's a statement for for all the VMA companies.

00:08:37: Proceed in this task basically to bring us all on a joint platform.

00:08:42: In order to allow all of us better scalability in our applications.

00:08:48: Great times I had but it also sounds challenging how can the intralogistics industry master

00:08:56: these challenges in the future that's a very difficult question because you have so many things you have so many Legacy systems out there so it's so heterogenous.

00:09:07: At the end I believe that the task has to be that we defined joint protocols joint understanding how things can be.

00:09:15: Integrated into a process and at the end I think that there will be Market forces that will all of us force in a certain direction to find our positions here,

00:09:24: do you see in the future as so-called or some call it lights off Factory or lights off Logistics or how do you see that

00:09:33: I don't know what you mean was lights off so it's dark red dark and no more people at all in the in the lightest Express I don't I mean of course at the end I don't want to call it has to be the AIM,

00:09:46: but at the end in the under the pressure of the pressure that that all companies are under to increase productivity.

00:09:54: Would be a future scenario if that is technically possible.

00:09:58: It's very difficult to say because you have so many still so many manual processes in warehouses in the industry.

00:10:07: I believe it will be tricky to come to that point particularly under the view point.

00:10:14: The customer so our customer demands are continuously changing because their customer demands are continuously changing you when you.

00:10:22: And you look into how your how our ol,

00:10:26: consuming behavior is changing in the past we all probably bought standard sneakers nowadays we want to have individually branded labeled sneakers for example which is a different process the one is you just pick a

00:10:38: pack and the other one is you have a kind of an.

00:10:42: Evaluate step in manufacturing which in this particular case needs then a certain level either of automation or manual work so I believe that the continuous change of consumer Behavior.

00:10:55: Prevents a little bit lights off Factory yeah it's much more about customization right and flexibility so it's about of like like,

00:11:05: modularization of manufacturing process or supply chain processes in order to insure.

00:11:11: That's at least larger parts of manual interaction can be reduced I think that would be that would be at the end the aim yeah so and probably that's not possible with a real light.

00:11:23: Feb,

00:11:24: or I don't I don't see that because I would assume Really that it's that it's too complex to be because of the changing demands to to come to those kinds of

00:11:37: yeah totally golden dark factories yeah and where do you see the most promising Innovations,

00:11:44: for Logistics in the future you are also here at the ifoy you are also nominated with SSI schäfer.

00:11:53: For a flat-pack picking I think it's for the furniture industry first of all we can go maybe we can go into into that a little bit and then where you see the next Innovations in logistics.

00:12:06: That's a very big question because,

00:12:09: this industry is of course a very heterogeneous and very diverse industry with so many different applications so difficult to say but from a let's say to answer that question a bit more generically.

00:12:22: I believe it's on one hand on the automation field we see a lot of case picking applications we see a lot of Peace picking applications.

00:12:33: We're more and more food we discussed in the previous question,

00:12:37: the manual process is replaced in a warehouse going into an automated process we see.

00:12:44: The way how we can handle data today though we how we can handle images

00:12:50: help us in going more into into better automatic applications on the case in peace picking side that is for example one element of course we are looking into a gva Mr or

00:13:02: a German would be FTS things that means how can we potentially replace traditional material flow processes and Warehouse so that is also a very important question.

00:13:12: But again above everything is for us of course the question.

00:13:18: How do we deal with software we are coming with our own software suite our own warehouse management system vamos

00:13:27: and here we try to embed basically another forklift is coming here so it's getting noisy here we try to embed in the software the different

00:13:39: new needs of customers the customer demands.

00:13:43: To ensure that the software is continuously helping our customers to improve productivity in their in their operation so the software side there is a lot on going and then we talk of course the megatrends that.

00:13:56: That we are all part of we see urbanization people growing population is going into more urban sites we all want to have our stuff as fast as possible we when we order something

00:14:10: how we want to have it in,

00:14:12: two hours or so or three hours that means it's been 15 Logistics it's a different it's a different logistic supply chain than the traditional one where we say within.

00:14:22: 24 or 48 Hours something has to be shipped so that's going then in the direction of Nano fulfillment micro fulfillment or dark stores as we said it before.

00:14:32: So there are a lot of topics from our and let's say from a schäfer perspective we try.

00:14:40: I believe that the rest of the industry is doing it as well we try to continue scan.

00:14:45: The trends in the market the technology Trends the mega

00:14:50: Trends basically and the implications to that and try to find our answers and and Technical Solutions to those things are very interesting let's go back to the software part how do you manage

00:15:03: this transition to.

00:15:06: Two words more and more becoming a software company because I know it from from the automotive industry it was years ago a big shift in

00:15:17: and it's it is still there so how do you manage that and how do you see that.

00:15:22: I mean schäfer SSI schäfer quiet DK to go a bit more than a decade ago and integration company that had its main focus on software that's basically the core product of a product at that point in time.

00:15:35: And that is was at that time a standalone unit and we try to integrate that more and more into our traditional hardware and automation business.

00:15:44: And bring those guys together in and and of course what we do see is that the importance of that element of the business is continuously increasing,

00:15:54: and that means for us of course that we are that we are trying to support those guys.

00:16:00: In giving them the environment that they require to to develop a good software suite for the application that we require.

00:16:10: On top of that also what is important here is maybe on the keyword ma we also did acquire company

00:16:20: that is doing the sap UWM integration because we see of course a lot of customers.

00:16:26: That don't that are not using our own Farmers product but are on an sap platform,

00:16:32: and of course those customers we also don't want to exclude that means we acquired here in this field in order to ensure that we also covering this field properly,

00:16:42: so that we can help as much

00:16:45: customers as possible hmm interesting I wanted to ask about that also the big Acquisitions that are going on in the industry nowadays

00:16:55: um everyone is acquiring one am our player on the field.

00:17:00: Um but you obviously already have DS Automotion which is quite an advantage in there do you see more and more Acquisitions going on in different.

00:17:11: Types of vehicles or in different types of amr's or even other types of robots

00:17:18: said you see coming yeah it's always a question is it is it about the Mr itself or is it more about the fleet controller and the software capabilities I would see it more on that end in general.

00:17:28: I believe that the intralogistics industry is still a very diverse industry you see that we have.

00:17:36: The top 10 players in the industry are covering maybe 60 65 percent of the market so it's a long tail end.

00:17:44: I'll for companies that is in there and normally that would always cry for a certain kind of consolidation in the market but the market is very heterogenous and I would predict.

00:17:56: Same as in other industries that there is more and more concentration happening in the market and you will see consequently acquisitions.

00:18:06: If that always will be so-called Landmark deals that means that big companies are joining forces as we recently saw that with.

00:18:15: One of the companies based in Hamburg and one in elegant that is probably the exception but we will see more and more women 80s.

00:18:26: Hmm so you see the four seated in in the future also,

00:18:32: a very interesting topic that you mentioned just is all the city Logistics and that's obviously a very interesting also for me and my company noise Technologies

00:18:43: um and there are a lot of players coming providing groceries Within,

00:18:49: minutes basically 15 minutes or so Ian Germany there is of Link there is gorillas going on and so on there are a lot of players in that field how do you see this

00:19:01: evolving in the future regarding automation what's your MP opinion on that.

00:19:08: Hmm first of all I think that hour,

00:19:12: consumer behavior is changing same as a set it before so we are typically not going so much anymore into supermarkets we want to get the stuff that we require or food and grocery stuff.

00:19:25: I've basically delivered to the door.

00:19:28: At the moment where those businesses are scaling up we consequently will see that the.

00:19:36: Um beginning of the process when they all worked very manual will transform more and more into automated processes I believe that that is that that is an actual consequence so as more as those businesses are scaling as more automation will be required.

00:19:50: I believe that's no other no other choice because we are all.

00:19:55: Running under the same preconditions labor and Workforce is only available to a limited extent.

00:20:04: Scaling up with even adding more Personnel is difficult and it's also expensive so the only solution to it is automation.

00:20:13: And it's probably as simple as that right so because they're at least in the

00:20:19: High wage countries there is no alternative to that yeah I'm Soto I believe that probably also for a lot of companies and I'm not saying customer companies and say generally companies.

00:20:31: The the the relations are not that visible that there is a lot of work force involved,

00:20:39: that this a lot of cost involved when you operate manually when you look into into operations I believe every company is under this severe pressure,

00:20:48: to increase productivity and you're coming from the automotive industry you know those pressures that have been there of like 10 12 percent.

00:20:56: Productivity increase in a certain time period I believe that traditional Industries like the mechanical engineering is to the or retail in Saint.

00:21:05: Probably not been under that severe pressure like the automotive industry but they all come under this pressure and the only solution to that is basically,

00:21:15: optimize the process.

00:21:17: They saw the solution but I see that actually has a big opportunity for Germany overall with robotics with Logistics would with this Heritage of

00:21:28: of logistics on I see see this as a possibility for the future absolutely I believe that I mean it's a country full of techies

00:21:36: yeah so there's a lot of engineers in the country and a lot of people that,

00:21:41: want to continuously as us driving continuously to find new Solutions in an optimized way.

00:21:47: Using robotics using software combining things together so I believe it's a big chance for four particular for the German industry.

00:21:56: Because that's a traditional business they were coming from mechanical engineering in the past and that will go more into a Automation and software related.

00:22:06: And all the universities also around here in Germany so with the with the right faculties and everything so that's I mean it's a it's a it's a topic for society also we as in Europe

00:22:21: particularly in German of course needs Germany need to.

00:22:25: That's the what we would call in German the mint or stem would be the American were to it so the,

00:22:34: Natural Science physics mathematics that those kind of.

00:22:38: Educational ways are supported more and more and that of course also the younger generations of the kids going to school today find it attractive to go in this research Fields going to Natural Science.

00:22:51: So that we also have let's say also in the future the possibility to develop interesting technological.

00:22:59: And therefore I think it's a it's a good point that we also have a standard at least in the aymara and agv filled with the vda5050 coming out of Germany

00:23:08: um to to standardize at least this field

00:23:11: are there any other fields in logistics where you see standardization on the horizon or actually that you are already tackling with the video met,

00:23:22: I mean he had the initiative was also not coming from the in from the intralogistics industry it was coming from the automated motive industry as that industry.

00:23:31: It's probably more used to it I believe it's not really in the nature of the industry of the traditional mechanical industry to to jump into standards because there's still the question of.

00:23:43: Do I loose then my protection of my technological advantage or my USP or however you want to call it so I don't believe that there is.

00:23:55: A large drive towards standardization.

00:23:59: And I also believe that it's also difficult to find that large dry for standardization because the frame conditions in the market are changing so dramatically or changing their the demand the individualization the,

00:24:12: the customer demands as I said it before changing Soul strong that this is preventing a little bit D standard because standard always.

00:24:22: Implies that you lead lose a little bit of flexibility and Agility,

00:24:27: and it's not necessary to stand that everything right however it's however having in mind the resource limitations time money personnel.

00:24:39: I believe the only solution is to that that.

00:24:42: Things have to be developed jointly on certain Platforms in order to overcome certain limitations in productivity in customers sites,

00:24:53: Steffen I can not let you go in this podcast to ask you about your general opinion about.

00:25:02: Um how do you see the future of Logistics in 10 years so looking a little bit further even do you see drones coming do you see.

00:25:12: A our glasses coming or

00:25:14: what's your vision on that I mean whatever you see there in and nice technology will probably have that we I was walking today here the exhibition and and set it so amazing to see.

00:25:27: On on how much different technology approaches you can see how much drive is there.

00:25:34: To to make customers operations more productive so of course I do all see that however I also say.

00:25:43: When we talk about larger quantities or larger operations,

00:25:49: it has to be reliable technology so it's not about a spot on idea somewhere which is nice to have,

00:25:57: but it needs to work in a certain scale we need to ensure when we are sending out I don't know 50,000 packs per hour

00:26:04: that's a reliable thing that works because if it's not working for 10 minutes and we have an issue right in so far I believe.

00:26:13: We all the entire industry needs to motivate also startups needs to interact with.

00:26:19: Research organizations like like found over here in particularly in Dortmund.

00:26:26: Ensure that the youngsters in the industry develop continuously new ideas,

00:26:33: and then cooperate with the with the companies in the industry to ensure that this is a scalable technology a reliable technology at the end that can be used and that I think is the aim and the target for all of us

00:26:46: okay great maybe that's a good last question Stephen how do you interact with startups at River.

00:26:54: Um yeah the probably was it was not too much interaction in the past probably that's also not 100% right statement but it could be more.

00:27:06: I think when you when you want to interact with research organizations like like like fraunhofer or if you want to interact with a certain startup clusters you need to have also the infrastructure in your own organization to handle that because.

00:27:20: Then you need to go a little bit away from your traditional development process everything is I don't know documented in an Erp system and and so on you need to find ways to

00:27:31: act also in your own organization a bit more agile we try to do that we of course go our traditional way of development to have reliable Technologies

00:27:39: but we also try to let me call it.

00:27:42: Look into the market have units in our own operation that scan the market see what's going on and then find ways to cooperate and to interact belief in the last 2 years,

00:27:55: we have initiated a lot of those Partnerships and it's of course in,

00:28:02: initial investment to see if then later an interesting technology or an interesting idea or application is coming out of it.

00:28:10: Okay well thank you very much Stephen was really good talking to you thank you very much for those insights also on behave of our

00:28:20: um our listeners yeah it was big fun thanks Marco

00:28:24: okay thank you all right that was the logistics try podcast episode was definite Birch the CEO of SSI schäfer I hope you enjoyed Today's Show please make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any of the future episodes

00:28:38: I'm boss felgendreher until next time.