Is now the right time to work for a LogTech Startup? (Frederic Krahforst, TradeLink and Jonah McIntire, Transporeon)

00:00:01: Hello and welcome to the logistics drive I'm your host boys felgendreher and today we will talk about a topic that's particular close to my heart

00:00:12: and that I know is on the minds of a lot of our listeners and that is the question whether now is actually the right time to start working for a logistics Tech startup,

00:00:21: husband involved with supply chain Logistics and Technology stops for most of my career and I really enjoyed this Lively discussion on the topic with my two guests Friendly Car first and Jonah McIntire.

00:00:31: Frederic is the co-founder and CEO of LogTech startup tradelink.

00:00:36: And Jonah has founded and successfully sold to love Tech startups and is currently working for transporeon and established LogTech company

00:00:43: regardless of whether you're a seasoned professional with more of a corporate background whether you have some experience in cyber environments or whether you are starting fresh out of University

00:00:51: startups especially in the supply chain and Logistics area can be a very attractive career opportunity but with all the uncertainty around the economy and increasingly difficult start up funding environment Etc

00:01:02: a lot of things to consider so I think today's episode is a very valuable resource for all of you,

00:01:07: and on the topic of valuable tools and resources I'd also like to mention that I just launched a brand new project called the logtechies job board,

00:01:15: logtechies is the first hand curated job board for the field of logistics technology and that's where I post the coolest LogTech jobs at those companies that I currently find the most interesting,

00:01:26: right now the board features really cool LogTech jobs at sender at Flash and pause that fan right at tradelink at noise Technologies and there are many more to come you can find the logtechies job board at logtechies.com

00:01:39: ello gtec H IE s.com logtechies.com,

00:01:44: okay before we get started with today's show a quick thanks to our supporters great orange great orange automated Warehouse operations through a combination of AI software and autonomous mobile robots.

00:01:54: Great orange systems on plays at some very prominent companies such as Ikea or the Danish wholesale goods and Furniture retailer you asked

00:02:01: if you're looking to get your warehouse and fulfillment operations to the next level with the help of autonomous robots and automation you should definitely have gray orange on your list,

00:02:10: check them out at grey orange.com.

00:02:13: All right and now let's move on to the show with Friendly Car first and Jonah McIntire enjoy hello Frederick hello Jonah welcome to the logistics Drive thanks for being on the program,

00:02:24: thanks for having us six having a sports Friday Jonah as I just mentioned in my brief intro I want to talk to you today about.

00:02:31: If now is actually a good time to join a LogTech start up and let me just sort of quickly set up the scene of why I feel.

00:02:38: This topic first of all I haven't heard this topic being discussed in any length and any detail and a podcast or any format so.

00:02:46: I think it's important for us to talk about it and you each bring or we all three of us being very unique backgrounds to the table that are worth discussing a double clicking on.

00:02:55: And then also.

00:02:57: We can probably start start with discussing how this whole LogTech startup ecosystem has evolved over the last few years and it's definitely changing right now right you can't avoid the fact that the global economy is changing,

00:03:10: there's major major misalignments between between companies and the markets and

00:03:17: and it's trickling down into the tech sector so there's there's heavy developments and cutbacks and slowdowns and hiring and Investments at Major tech companies that have so far been pretty much resistant and Rebus and reluctant to any sort of slow down.

00:03:31: And they're seeing it now so this is obviously at some point trickling down to the LogTech sector that I have become very fond of me the champion off for the last few years,

00:03:41: because been booming so much so much money has gone into it so many new Talent enter that markets and I'm afraid right now.

00:03:47: That is all might be coming to a screeching hold which I hope is not the case so let's double click on that and actually figure out for folks who are working in the traditional Logistics sector that are thinking about maybe joining a start-up but also people already working.

00:04:02: In the LogTech startup scene and thinking about do I stay in there should I leave and do I get cold feet or should I should I work for more established company let's double-click on all of that but maybe let's sort of review and and sort of.

00:04:14: Zoom out a little bit and let's just review the last few years how you experience the entire LogTech sector developing internal let's talk with you because you've been.

00:04:25: Sort of a serial entrepreneur you've been in the sector for a long long time you've seen it all you've seen the ups and downs that are naturally occurred,

00:04:32: and then you've monitored and witnessed this sort of sudden really luck Tech boom that we saw in the last I want to say three or four years,

00:04:40: maybe let's talk with you what's your what's your recap of the of the last few years of the LogTech sector I think that the financial,

00:04:47: the wave of sort of money at 0% interest is the Baseline.

00:04:52: Hit us the same way it had all other sectors essentially money was just looking for a place to go to get any sort of future return at all.

00:05:00: And and that that drove a lot basically that that was that was maybe 50 percent of the of the.

00:05:07: I don't know the energy in the room or the air in the room was coming from this flood of money and a lot of that money went to genuinely interesting things and then a lot of the money went to things that were more speculative or simply.

00:05:19: Like unsounded in it at their base.

00:05:23: But we should probably distinguish between two kinds of you know LogTech you've got the log part which is there essentially logistics companies.

00:05:32: That are just built for the internet age from day one.

00:05:36: Yeah and then you have the thinking you think of the flex Sports the sender is the yeah I was a little world okay yeah exactly you take a company like.

00:05:43: Zen cargo Flex Porter Center at their operating model is a logistics company.

00:05:51: There's some sort of sick there's a suggestion or a reality that the they do it in a technical technically enabled way better than their competitors but you know from the outside

00:06:01: you look at the black boxes Logistics something and then there's a technology companies that serve the logistics sector.

00:06:08: Right and this would be a proliferation of things like.

00:06:13: Our old supply chain visibility every supply chain visibility be there in like a hundred years is still is a Hot Topic I guess but you know.

00:06:23: The proliferation of sensors and the ability to do tracking down on smaller and smaller levels of granularity and with smaller granularity between time points of when you get some sort of signal so content whether it's continuous or not.

00:06:38: And and then just a number of other things so I think there's that both of those sides receive funding.

00:06:43: And are doing interesting things but they really I think they had in different directions in the future now because of the change in the funding Cycles.

00:06:50: So that's my my take on yeah and just to double-click on a newer is stressing the fact that money was a cheaply available that drove a lot of the Investments that went in but there's also this other element where,

00:07:01: like especially the last two years the world has really experienced firsthand

00:07:06: how analog and how old-fashioned and how complicated Supply chains and so brittle they still are

00:07:12: so I think that's what also prompted a lot of investments in that space not just because money was available because also the the shortcomings of the way

00:07:20: Global Supply chains are run have become so blatantly obvious I think that was another driver probably right and the move to be the C right I mean you could you'd also say like hey everyone's ordering from from home now,

00:07:32: or has been in the last last year and a half and even if money was that you know the Baseline interest rate was at six percent that would have fueled.

00:07:42: A kind of a wild west drive to claim that space and create services for that space so yeah I agree with you on that.

00:07:49: Frederic anything to add there what's your experience I mean you you're somewhat competitive compared to me and and Joanna you're still somewhat fresh to the sector,

00:07:56: What attracted you originally I mean how did you come into it and what were some of the contributing factors why you started

00:08:02: a venture in that space and that is financed now every like the framework that you use Jonah with with the lock and the tech piece I think another way to look at our discussion is.

00:08:12: Should you join Logistics that company at all and that's between startup and Logistics right so that's two questions and then the other question the third question is should you do it right now.

00:08:23: So then there's the timing timing piece we started 20.

00:08:28: So we just a couple of month before everyone was talking about supply chain and Logistics just because of what we experienced but when we started we didn't know that yet what we really

00:08:37: we're attracted to is the sheer size of the problem so we really enjoyed thinking about and I think it's about 1.7 trillion of goods that we're moving across our B2B Supply chains in Europe and North America so this is just an unimaginable size.

00:08:50: I really enjoyed thinking about how that is being aligned and communicated right now and this is just seems to be that that needs to be solved right that's that's something that we wanted to work on and,

00:09:00: I think in logistics or supply chain because this

00:09:03: the market is just so big and the problems are so big you have a chance to build a world-changing company right and that's something that really attracted us yeah I one thing I want to add to that is the fact that something that I've observed in which you already are perfect example of,

00:09:15: is that we've seen this influx of Founders that are not from the logistic space or from the supply chain space I mean you can name just any any of the.

00:09:24: Even very successful companies that have made it that I've got funding in that built major companies they were all started by people that are completely agnostic or not from the industry at all.

00:09:34: Which I find fascinating so that it's the first time in history basically that that whole Space attracted people from the outside world where in the in the past,

00:09:43: you know you maybe you've got some ideas in some trials and some experiments and some some funding from inside of the industry now that's completely reversed that I found one of the most exciting interesting Trends yeah.

00:09:54: I think what we experience is in logistics or supply chain it's really complex right you really need to laugh.

00:10:00: To get into that and really understand and we're still learning it's we're still learning stuff over still being corrected by people we talked to because we use the wrong lingo or we miss the detail so I think you really need to be

00:10:13: if you're frightened up from outside the company I'll set the industry you really need to love learning and learning and listening and listening.

00:10:20: Um for us it was a coincidence I think we had initial inside from a co-founder because he found an e-commerce company that something can be done better.

00:10:29: And then we just were curious and started investigating investigate investigating and came to a lot of problems and interesting piece was that,

00:10:35: people are really open to talk about it because I think they're outside the feeling that it didn't get enough attention yet so we're very open to discuss this especially the logistics part of supply chain right which is.

00:10:45: What's under served with attention or a still is yeah also you also need at certain.

00:10:50: I mean naivety is probably the wrong word but it's sometimes a fresh mind beginner's mind right you know what I mean like you know it's there's there's so there's so many people in the industry that I just old and entrenched and think about

00:11:01: the way things are done and the old traditional ways and sometimes it takes an outsider just come in there and think wow this is a huge space there's a huge potential here and this is so analog let's jump in here,

00:11:10: with a naive re beginner's mind that's very refreshing that's sometime jump-starts things,

00:11:16: just the way that Elon Musk jumped into the automotive industry right it's funny course a bad example that example face so I think I think it's his face has been the space is actually more interesting because you have a guy who says.

00:11:28: Yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna do this for a fraction of the cost with a ship that comes back and lands itself.

00:11:34: And it's going to use like a it's like a tenth of the moving parts or something and you go okay so what's your background and he's like I did a software company

00:11:43: yeah yeah yeah so is it a trickle down into the LogTech space I feel because I've talked to so many successful Founders who had no idea,

00:11:51: and then just I could have jumped into the deep end of the pool and became fascinated and became experts really really quickly on the topic,

00:11:57: right so it's sometimes you you overestimate a long it takes to actually get smart on stuff it can get super quick if you really,

00:12:04: if you really onto something and really dive down into a niche but I think there's also this interesting point that comes really quickly once you've found sort of your initial idea and you got some validation on this then you realize how long that took you and you don't want everyone to do the same,

00:12:18: so then you switch right then you want the people from the industry to join you and you tell them what you found out,

00:12:23: and that's something you really need afterwards like probably LMS is hiring a lot of people from BMW right now so I think that changes quickly then,

00:12:31: yeah have you reached that point yet with your with your shop Frederick I mean are you already looking to hire sort of entrenched expertise sure yeah we try to mix them because I think if you have a team that's composed of different experience that's super helpful.

00:12:45: But teaching everyone that joins how logistic supply chain works that's that's a long process.

00:12:51: So we try to speed that up yeah what do you make of the fact that as I mentioned before this this trickling down of the hiring slowdown in the even some layoffs I mean we've seen some layoffs arrive in the LogTech space,

00:13:03: I mean most prominent cases where fast delivery service right like gorillas go Puff.

00:13:08: I'm gets here they had major layoffs even then headquarters not just drivers and not pulling that of markets but actually

00:13:14: support staff and people in headquarters in Berlin and that's sort of disquieting and worrying but this is probably a unique example because they came out of nowhere they Rose to.

00:13:24: Exorbitant evaluations and just bloated operations and head

00:13:28: it just had to cut back accordingly but that's probably a bad example but I could see this affecting the entire sector where people just get spooked right because you hear these headlines and you don't want to get X I mean regattas of

00:13:40: how talented you are and I'll quickly you find a new job nobody wants to get a situation where your rug is being pulled from under you that's a really really.

00:13:47: It's a it's a really add a it's going to affect the way your,

00:13:51: Frederic and others are being able to hire people I think it's going to have a real impact what do you what do you feel I mean you have conversations right now with people that interested in joining you,

00:13:59: what do you feel is that are you thinking in are people becoming more cautious or,

00:14:03: are they just as willing to jump into an adventure as they were before all of this started turning South I think Jonah made a good point that you,

00:14:11: you need to look at the reasons so people are asking right they asking what so how safe is it to work at your company but to look at the examples you brought I think some of them.

00:14:21: Maybe the fundamentals of the business model we're not there right but they got funding so that's something you want to take out of the equation because they're not relevant because of obviously I think I have a sound business model right and when we interview you should ask me about that.

00:14:35: And the other piece is every company that when markets go up and and demand goes up.

00:14:41: All companies have plans to serve that demand and if that suddenly crashes you need to adjust right that's not just Logistics that's everywhere.

00:14:49: So I think that's a normal movement that can happen to you wherever you work when we having these discussions right now I think the first question is do you want to work at a start-up in the first place if you're the right person for start-up and if you are and let's say another example you started at.

00:15:03: Let's take a great company a big company that's always hiring a lot that's a project for the for for example you started there have a year ago and maybe they're overtired.

00:15:13: And now they find out that they have too many positions too many people for the positions so you're being made let go.

00:15:21: Now you in the market you have have a year of experience at a startup who probably did a lot of things really right,

00:15:26: you learned a lot that you wouldn't have learned before your employability actually went up if you're the right person to work at a startup.

00:15:31: Now you're even more likely to go to a great start up right because you already made a decision you want to work at the startup and I probably hire you even more likely now.

00:15:39: Then I did before you started 144 so I think that's also a way to look at it if you are the right person for a startup,

00:15:45: I think every day you're not doing that you're wasting part of your life because your employability will just go up yeah that's an interesting theory that you once you're in it and then even if you get ax or if you making being made redundant once you're in it you stay in it I can also Envision the the opposite being the case,

00:16:00: you get spooked you get burned and you don't want another one of those inches on your resume which will still be looked down upon if you stayed in a place for less than a year or what have you.

00:16:09: And you don't want to take risks and then you've got to go back to DB Schenker or Kunal just to for a few years just to smooth things out again Jonah what's your what's your take on that yeah I think you see that another career so if you worked in

00:16:21: let's say you weren't you wouldn't worked at but you use project for it's a really well-known name so it you know the equivalent be if you went and worked for something like Goldman Sachs

00:16:30: add you were there for four months and then you're fired yeah that looks bad if you were there for 18 months to years,

00:16:36: you lose your job if you want to stay in the sector you're probably going to be able to Parlay That Into You Know higher in another another Investment Bank.

00:16:45: I think the thing that if I if I could if I was coaching somebody through let's say I was talking to somebody who worked at a either a.

00:16:55: Standard software company so they worked at sap for example and they were thinking about going to new technology provider or and the technology provider wouldn't accept them.

00:17:05: Or or I was talking to somebody who worked at yeah I like I don't know how back Lloyd and they were thinking about going to send cargo or something like that so.

00:17:15: That the couple things I'll be putting out so one is it's not so much a downturn in the economy I think it's the change in the underlying interest rate.

00:17:22: You know we were in a situation where if some if a startups all of their future free cash flow with say 20 years in the future that's when they're actually going to start,

00:17:32: profitable it making really big money that was fine because it was there was no discount between now and twenty years from now I mean it just that if you paid me a million.

00:17:40: Dollars back as an investor 20 years from now that was basically the same as a million today because there was the interest rate in the inflation rate we're essentially zero.

00:17:50: But that's not the case anymore so so suddenly a long bet which like take a public company like uber

00:17:57: posted their first free cash flow this quarter right and their free cash flow was like 0.1% debit I mean it's nothing right it's nothing.

00:18:10: And so that that suddenly is totally unacceptable in the new sort of.

00:18:16: Financial Financial reality and I think that causes more because the downturn in the economy that will swing back that's a.

00:18:25: That's a 18 months kind of painful period and then it comes back and it's not going to swing that much it maybe that's a small retraction.

00:18:32: This reset in to interest rates that are more like.

00:18:35: What we had before the the great financial crisis that I think is more important and that be the first thing the second thing is like okay they're there yeah they're laying people off but

00:18:45: you know the difference between sort of BMW and and Tesla's is more of the growth trajectory.

00:18:51: Anyway so like you maybe didn't get laid off and BMW but you weren't going to you work at climb the ladder very quickly either.

00:18:58: Growing companies that give you a 42 that opportunity if you're in a company that.

00:19:02: Hires 30 40 % new staff in a year you got a pretty good chance of getting promoted just by force of numbers so so I wouldn't be too worried about the that side of the layoffs I'd be more worried about the.

00:19:14: And it comes back to stock up just to mention will I know we'll get to our numeration eventually but we talked about stock options with this reset and interest rates.

00:19:22: The valuations have to go down me just just the math like the valuations go down.

00:19:28: And it's not those stock options just are less in value for two reasons one is like the exit price will be lower but the second is is almost every investor has liquidation preferences on there.

00:19:39: On their shares so they're going to get a certain amount of money.

00:19:43: It's like you could be a billion valuation or 100 million valuation and they've got the sort of a guarantee of say 90 million so they could have,

00:19:50: it doesn't matter right like they could say they have 10% chairs but they've got a guarantee of the first 90 million something like that that that's the preference liquidation preference.

00:19:59: And in effect what that means is all this rush to invest that happened right.

00:20:05: Bright before interest rates have gone up has locked in a higher share of the future value of these companies to the investors that's they weren't some of them made a mistake in investing,

00:20:14: others were smart enough to lock in throughput through liquidation preference has essentially a higher stake in the business than it looks like on paper.

00:20:21: Because when they exit at a lower valuation up the preference the liquidation preferences will bring the back and that will fall to Esau you know the.

00:20:29: And employee stock option holders for sure.

00:20:32: Yeah let it since since we're on the topic in let's stay on the topic of options for a second before we start talking about just the general incentives of working for start-up and what the pros and cons are but let's Linger on the topic of the financial incentives,

00:20:44: that existed in the past why somebody even would consider working for start of regardless of how exciting the job is but you couldn't separate that from an incentive of people thinking wow

00:20:54: maybe this is this place is going some places and maybe I'll just Just Be A Millionaire one day if I play my cards right and I'm an early employee I get my options I mean there's plenty of examples especially in Silicon Valley where that was the case,

00:21:06: a lot of people were sort of in their back of their heads,

00:21:08: had that as one of the motivations let's talk about that maybe Frederick what's your point of view I know all of the people or most of the people in your company,

00:21:16: also are rewarded with stock options is that and you're in Germany so there's still there's whole lots of complications we could talk about differences in the markets for stock options but is that.

00:21:25: Do you feel that that's a motivator I mean not people coming into the door applicants asking specifically for that are they motivated by that or.

00:21:33: Mainly a u.s. thing where people are super focused on I'm getting options and getting equity and and sort of rising up is that even a thing here is to you.

00:21:42: Maybe you can elaborate on that a little bit I think it's.

00:21:45: When I talk about this is from perspective of an early stage company right and this will this might change throughout the our growth paths right now we're two years old.

00:21:53: And I think there's no person that tradelink that's here for the money like at this stage people don't they don't come because they think they're going to be millionaires at some point so the way we think about this is.

00:22:04: Your own part of potentially building Legacy and you want to be part of that trajectory and there is a there's a chance that you don't have to work afterwards anymore,

00:22:13: right but that's that's a potential scenario that you don't work for that's just a that's just as a consequence

00:22:20: of you being successful and learning a lot and having a steep trajectory so we don't really have these discussions around okay is that going to be worth enough how much is going to be worth also because we're at the stage where ideally there's a 10 20 30 40 x on what we do right we will grow

00:22:34: our idea is to grow.

00:22:36: A lot right if you're later Stage Company back to the what Jonah said then maybe you already locked into much valuation and you don't have that that chance to grow 10x or 20 eggs and suddenly becomes really relevant what the value is today.

00:22:51: For us it's really about is it going to be 20 30 whatever the number is right is this going to be getting really really big.

00:22:58: And I think that's what's motivating everyone right now but yeah not not not the money and I think with your coming for the money in the first place then you're probably not going to be successful anyway

00:23:06: startup yeah but he's do you are going to have the discussion because if someone's is considering working for a large organization there are going to have bigger salaries there right.

00:23:17: You are going to in a when you're just starting off you're in a position you can't offer the same level of surly that you would that a large company can offer so there's something else and you typically your compensate you have as well

00:23:27: you're basically is not high but here's some Equity that could be worth some something in the future that you're having that conversation right so you are dangling the carrot

00:23:35: in front of potential applicants or no I think the discussion starts with what's important to you in life do you want to learn do you want to have an exponential cougar track

00:23:42: um do you want to be part of a fitting Legacy then you probably should join then we talk about your compensation it's likely going to be lower than what you earn in a classical larger company

00:23:51: however in the startup impact is excessively rewarded more than CV or experience so you have the chance to unlock more than in your current role if you're excellent,

00:24:01: and I won't wait three years or four years till you have the right level if you are.

00:24:07: Awesome and you perform really well I give you infinite responsibility and you'll be equivalently Revolt rewarded for that so you might make a lot more than you,

00:24:15: that before but you're taking that risk yeah I that conversation around salary versus options and so forth is somewhat easy for someone to starting off or early in their career right way is not that much of an Arbitrage but

00:24:27: it's a different story with someone who's been working for 20 years at Kuno Naga or hapag Lloyd or what have you.

00:24:32: And is now considering moving into a roller Tech startup that that's going to be a major card that's a different story.

00:24:39: Jonah have you experienced situations like that and what was the motivations for people doing that and what was your

00:24:44: your major selling point of getting people like that to to join yeah it's a really depends on the stage of the startup and that's actually probably a key for the listeners who are again if we go back to these two people they work at sap they work at Peck Lloyd.

00:24:59: They're considering moving to.

00:25:01: Us startup that somebody knows or recommended to them or something you know the first one of the first question to ask is what's the stage at startup right so.

00:25:10: If it's a pre-revenue startup they don't have money to pay you your Market salary.

00:25:15: It doesn't matter what guarantees they give you it's highly risky you're going to be motivated by having a stake in the final in the final outcome of that business that just that's the only way that you could.

00:25:26: They obviously the intrinsic motivation is there but the only way that they can compensate you for the risk and the fork on salary.

00:25:36: Is to give you a stake in the in the business right and then as it heads more towards a just a operating business but I think about a company like like said cargo today.

00:25:46: You know they're recruiting away people who are there not just in you know haploid or something they're like leaders of those companies.

00:25:55: So you're getting the Regional VP you're getting the sales the sales VP you're getting the head of Partnerships you know.

00:26:04: Pratt project 44 you know hired the Gartner lead analyst for their space.

00:26:09: So you don't do that with I mean those people are going to get paid a lot of money no matter what right there that they don't come over with a pay cut they come over with a pay raise or or at least parity.

00:26:22: Plus the things that Frederick's mentioning I know for me when I've recruited in the past the way that I was approaching it was we're going to be a parody with market so that.

00:26:32: Person doesn't have this constant conflict within themselves of but you know I could be making like 5,000 Euros more.

00:26:40: That's the distraction compared to the cost just wasn't.

00:26:43: Just the trade-off that makes sense to me so we wanted to be a parody on Direct compensation but we couldn't there's no way we can make it less risky like that it just is what it is right.

00:26:53: Yeah because people say what's your Runway was like 9 months 12 months something like that right it's like yeah there's it's risky.

00:27:02: But what we compensate the risk for then or the risk with was more the autonomy of the role all the things Predators just mentioned like.

00:27:10: No one is no one would prevent you from going as fast as you possibly can write like if.

00:27:16: As we grow you'll always be assumed to be the person in charge of your area.

00:27:21: You know you can work any way you want you can work wherever you want we were remote first before it was before it was fashionable because people didn't want to die we were remote first and through these combination of like the non-monetary incentives.

00:27:36: We were able to recruit away like you know great great people actually,

00:27:40: hi I think I think that worked yeah but the sort of incentive of having autonomy and being your sort of Own Boss or like

00:27:47: can just describe or kind of kitchen carve out your own space

00:27:51: I mean if you reached a certain level inside a large organization there becomes more autonomy right you have your space and your you've got your freedoms and it's not like,

00:28:01: a small Cog of the of the or am I seeing this wrong is gonna get harder to recruit people that have right risen up the ranks and have therefore gained a sort of level of autonomy,

00:28:11: you don't have if you're early on I think the challenge that I faced with those people so I'll give you a like I have a clear example of someone that my mind to I won that to hire as a deaf sales.

00:28:21: And this person was like yeah I make 250 base and I make another 200 in variable so my of a 450.

00:28:28: Thousand US dollar a year compensation and two in my mind that actually wasn't the deal breaker the deal-breaker was that those people don't think in terms of individual contributors they think in terms of teams.

00:28:39: So if I look at this person.

00:28:41: There was no there was no chance at all that this person was going to come to us if we didn't give him a team of say 10 people to immediately right so so this person was not going to do something,

00:28:53: themselves they were going to essentially you know be the general over an army not go out to the front line and I think that actually was the.

00:29:02: In terms of timing it wasn't we could pay him it was in this case it was a businessman just to clear it so we could pay him it was the that aspect it's an interesting point because you as a potential employee Force for startup.

00:29:15: You don't only have to evaluate the potential risk you're facing with this thing gone out of business or not working out but you also have to.

00:29:22: M calculate the risk of you not thriving in that environment and not have you being actually successful because it's quite a different animal right so you have into

00:29:30: to deal with both of these risks on Friday I think it's a completely different job right if you have an established product established market and you need to maintain what already works

00:29:39: and maybe Advanced it a little bit and make sure reporting lines work versus building something from the ground right or taking something and,

00:29:47: putting that into the next evolution of that stage like for example a head of sales that comes when there are 10 people versus managing 300 people that's a completely different job I think so that's something to check for I'd love to make a point as well to what you said Jonah because I'm.

00:30:02: I tend to disagree little bit that people are really looking at them.

00:30:05: Or that all people are looking at the market value and sort of what's the fair value and I want to optimize for that and then they are trying to fit in what is the value of that what is the value of that for me.

00:30:15: I tend to think about this as what am I currently doing with my life how much do I love it,

00:30:22: how how how passionate am I about it and for me a lot of people find start up to be the right thing for that and then we have this discussion we're at the early stage right and I'm clear about this is going to change and it's already changing in terms of how you pay.

00:30:37: It's really about okay what do you need in your life stage right it's about you won't come if you have a house and if you have family and if we are so you should think about this as two.

00:30:48: What is what I need for my life am I going to get it from that company and then they weigh in on what am I looking on the upside.

00:30:56: In another scenario and how much can I strive here so I think it's up I don't think people are necessarily optimizing for that for that number.

00:31:05: Um but when they join us at least to optimize part of the page maybe yeah.

00:31:09: Yeah great that I think they satisfy for it essentially the thing I experienced anyway was that if you get at least in the range of their Market salary.

00:31:19: It takes away a lot of potential stressor noises you know they're there their spouse isn't reminding them that they're underpaid.

00:31:26: You know the when a recruiter contacts them which happens for everybody who has any capability at all right now right when a recruiter contacts them they're not constantly being bombarded with this like you are underpaid you are underpaid and it's not that,

00:31:41: I agree I totally agree through Friday I'm just saying that my experience was that.

00:31:46: The the small Delta there of like well I want to pay them 10% less than Market but I end up ended up creating this this tension which was like let's just pay the market and.

00:31:57: And then expect them to work twenty percent harder well yeah it's let's talk very realistically about let's just use that example again of someone that's been,

00:32:07: and a larger company be at a tech company like a large enterprise software company let's say or a logistics provider of some size.

00:32:16: That is considering working for a start-up that's new that sort of smallish and but has big upside potential.

00:32:22: What's the biggest selling point how should this person think about what's attractive about a starter why should they even bother why should they do this what's what's in it for them.

00:32:32: For you how would you best crystallized and describe it why.

00:32:36: That's a even an option to consider and what sort of person would actually Thrive and make the right decision by going with the start of cool.

00:32:44: I think first of all you're probably already unhappy if you had a large corporate.

00:32:48: No not that that's probably required that's that makes your body like no there's no no I'm not saying your gender is there plenty of happy people there also if you're looking you mean if you if we have this conversation there is there is a is likely that you wonder whether you should stay at the corporate

00:33:03: right that's that's I'm not saying people can be extremely happy at the

00:33:06: right there's a lot of benefits done saying if we have this discussion then you probably already came to the conclusion that there might be something else that you want to do,

00:33:13: that is different guy okay and then I'll weigh in on this and they'll tell you okay for us we are very invested in personal growth right we want to make sure that it's all about how fast can you grow what do you need to acquire in terms of your skills how can we,

00:33:26: helps you to succeed,

00:33:28: then it's all about infinite responsibility so if you're if you're good at what you do we're constantly make sure you grow and you get more and more responsibility because there's just too much to do

00:33:37: right that's just too much to handle so you will just make sure that the people that perform get more responsibility of course is this being part of a big building Legacy

00:33:46: and being rewarded for that if that succeeds right if if we're successful as we want to be you likely don't have to work after this anymore.

00:33:53: Right but that shouldn't be your primary motive that's just a nice side effect of us being successful and you work with passionate people I mean people who love what they do and,

00:34:02: every day you have this constant buzz and people are really into what they are doing but then you're all set the flip side there's this constant bus right this doesn't stop

00:34:12: like there's no separation clear separation that that's that's something that you need to be willing to want to do John anything to add there yeah me I am not doing it so right like I'm no longer as a start-up because because we sold our startup,

00:34:25: but I still am looking for the same kind of Staff essentially the same kind of teammates.

00:34:31: And hiring a lot this is gonna sound a little weird but I tried I tried to make the job sound as hard as possible which which it is I mean especially at the startup environment it's just.

00:34:43: Brutally unrelentingly hard and in contrast that with their other options so if they want to go work for Pat back Lloyd for example I have no doubt that they'll succeed right they have they have essentially zero chance of.

00:34:56: Losing their job in the next year at these sort of stable large corporates but I take the position that when you succeed was with a small goal like that the success will make you smaller essentially as a person update.

00:35:09: That by have having selected goals which were so which were so easily accomplished.

00:35:15: You know you know deep down inside that you're making yourself weaker.

00:35:19: And that you'll build your your career but not just your career just your sense of self right your pride in yourself.

00:35:27: You'll Build That by taking on goals which are available right that you it's possible that you'll come work for us and.

00:35:35: Though you try your best will decide after a year not that we're closing the business but that you didn't cut it right like you weren't you weren't good enough for the team actually or that,

00:35:45: we'll all try our best but the market will decide that we didn't cut it as a group right.

00:35:50: And only by participating in something that has the potential to fail because I mean not by chance not because lightning struck but because you weren't good enough.

00:36:01: Or we weren't good enough only through that is this success actually like affirming to you know to your sense of self.

00:36:11: Now if I can find people who and there are people right like if you can find people who that they see and and.

00:36:18: And live with the embodiment of like that challenge those are people I want to work with now like.

00:36:25: Sometimes they don't have exactly the right skill sets of it's just like I'm searching I'm trying to figure out people I want to spend the next you know I know the next several years.

00:36:34: 55 hours a week with and those are people I want the people who were like yeah just when I went to.

00:36:42: Yeah I want to be safe and say well it's not safe here I mean sorry great like it just isn't and I'm not going to I'm not going to make it safe and I'm not going to try this private like it's not safe but you'll like these other things I'm like yeah it's not safe and if you know you should be coming here because you don't let you want it to not be safe.

00:36:56: That's actually a great point for startup Founders not to sugarcoat things and being too eager to hire a great Personnel on board and beings having some real straight talk with them,

00:37:05: and really like opening up the kimono and tell them how the really is but it's talked about how there really is I mean we've all worked in both,

00:37:12: more of a corporate environment as well as a new startup environment from your experience,

00:37:16: is that old adage or that old picture still true that you work twice as hard as a start-up it's just more it's brutal huge the way to describe the Jonah or is that sort of a myth that the the workload or the stress that comes about

00:37:30: is not as bad after a while Jonah or maybe Frederick what's.

00:37:34: What's your take what's your experience and what do you see how do people cope is a work glove that much harder and you'll place and it is it's a company has been around for 20 years that's a good question that I probably can't answer totally.

00:37:47: I think a lot of the people that we hire already did more than they needed to do in the old roll.

00:37:52: Right they already not saying at 5:00 I'm gonna go home now but they had this intrinsic motivation to reach something so a lot of people already come with that mindset.

00:38:03: Nevertheless especially when we hire from from from corporate or classic industry we have this conversation around saying look.

00:38:11: It's probably going to be harder I can't tell you how much you need to work because at the end of the day I'm looking at impact right and we'll look at that I'm not going to bother you on the weekend likely unless there's something he's really critical then I want you to help me but that happens like

00:38:25: once every whatever yeah and also depends on your position but then we have this interesting realization that we thought we talked about it,

00:38:33: apparently we have different ideas of what it means that there's that is really intense so we had that in a couple of instances where we thought we talked about it

00:38:42: but there was still a gap in expectation I was too intense right so that that can happen hmm yeah overall I think if you prefer to work nine to five,

00:38:51: and that's sort of what you want to do then.

00:38:53: Probably don't join at least not that early stage startup yeah I actually think the hours although the hours are undoubtedly higher at startups you know in part for a lot of reasons but you know in part because the missions bigger and and.

00:39:06: You have to there's a sort of magic gap which has to be close somehow which is.

00:39:10: You have competitors who are already in the market they have established things whatever that is and you have less people less money less brand less whatever less products less service.

00:39:19: And you have to somehow close that Gap and the only way that I figured out how to do that would be.

00:39:24: You have smarter people because they're smaller groups you can select harder for smart for smarter people.

00:39:30: And they and they work more hours I mean it's the only way that I see to do it but but you also have to just basic selling your work at BMW of an HR department who's like task.

00:39:41: With stopping people from working overtime you know there's sort of a plate it like it's

00:39:47: the it structurally they're intending to block that whereas n maybe they don't do it all the time but they at least make an effort whereas the sudden I've never met a I've never really met as a successful startup where they said yeah we

00:39:59: we hired this person in h.r. to block people from working extra hours this will work but it doesn't make sense to offer some sort of work-life balance because you could also run the risk of attracting people that are just Sue,

00:40:11: super intense that I Workaholics and they just burn themselves out and that's not in your interest either right so you got to watch out for those those types that also have a propensity to show up at a start-up right I will hire them I mean I

00:40:23: I consider that you would hire them for two years well well I consider that burnout so so I have a I've sort of a broad look at the,

00:40:32: work life balance I just don't I just don't see that as a actually as a,

00:40:35: a topic for me but but let's take that let's take it at face value for so let's say I had somebody in front of me and I knew that they would work intensely but they've got the right skills and everything.

00:40:45: They're going to work super intensely for two years and then they're then there really are burned out it'll have to.

00:40:50: They'll have to take time off or leave or something you know two years in startup life it's like it's like as if I were to tell you that in,

00:40:59: two thousand and two thousand one hundred we're going to have a food shortage on Mars it's just so far it's a problem that's so far in the future that's so contingent on other things.

00:41:09: It's not worth worrying about right now,

00:41:11: that that's how I look at kind of can I say something that supposing that because if I had a very drastic rest of you 20 I think first of all I agree with you that if you find someone who.

00:41:26: Is extremely driven and to just doesn't feel like they need to separate something really hard and that

00:41:33: I'd love to have that person as well and I think we have a lot of these people but I think people don't burn out because their work too much,

00:41:38: right people burn out because they are not handling a certain piece of ambiguity or because you had to constantly change direction because you are not managing them well.

00:41:49: Because they don't have purpose so that's something I think is in our responsibility to make sure that these people have or have a discussion with them about why they don't have it,

00:41:57: I'm sort of protect them in that way maybe to wait this perspective makes sense well just to just to summarize it just as a piece of advice for someone.

00:42:07: That's in the later part of the career and has worked not in stop environment but is now looking to work at a start-up just to go back to our opening question whether now is a good timing is that,

00:42:17: can you say that now is a good time for that type of person to go into that space right now and why don't I start with you is it good time and why so I think if you were,

00:42:27: if you could if you could live your life over a century or something I would say no the good time would be when there's a flood of money coming in and the economy is about to go into high growth mode.

00:42:38: So that would have been a good time but given that that's not the way life works it's sort of the reverse is the question is sort of.

00:42:46: Is now a good time for your life not for the economy.

00:42:49: And and then I probably am going to say what Frederick Frederick would say as well as just if Now's the Time for you if this is the time you want to block out

00:42:58: a couple years and give it a try especially if you're later in your career as he said Boris you can go back to your career I mean they will accept you right.

00:43:05: So it was just just try it you know introspect about what you want and your career and.

00:43:10: At this moment and if that's what you want to try then then try it and also in a way this is a self weeding out process where the only jobs you find right now always saw the companies that I hiring that have a growth path right and you're running into a risk where there's just frivolous hiring you going on and.

00:43:25: And your drops makes no sense and it's going to be gone and so you have that situation to where the only jobs at companies right now I mean you have to obviously maybe you have to do more diligence and you have in the past.

00:43:35: But also the only jobs that you could potentially get right now I with jobs that are you know that a somewhat secure even in that space,

00:43:41: correct no I completely agree I think I think it became easier in that sense and typically you know in the downturn

00:43:50: some of the most successful companies have been founded right you're after the.com bust and Airbnb Amazon they all started hard times.

00:43:58: Because they sort of had had to develop a sound business model and be prudent about their spending and have the best people on board stretch the people that have on board so if you,

00:44:08: do more due diligence I think that's right but I don't think the fundamentals changed so the market is ripe for a new wave of Technology

00:44:16: the problem is big enough and the money is still flowing in right we just have a detraction from what happened.

00:44:22: But in Q2 this year even after this first wave of correction we select more VC funding than in 2020 any quarter,

00:44:31: right so we are talking at okay 2122 that was crazy right and that doesn't consist this is not consistent anymore.

00:44:39: But we're still having a lot of money and he sees looking at how much money he sees have at its disposal that is actually higher than ever right because they have that money right now.

00:44:48: So fundamentals didn't change valuations came down and they might be hard to harder to raise for the next whatever nobody knows your two years but yeah if you find a good company.

00:44:57: I don't think the why now changed yeah so that was the discussion around folks that have been an industry that at a later stage of their career I was recently approached so I was an event at Logistics and supply chain event a couple months ago and I was approached by.

00:45:11: A student who was studying Logistics and supply chain and he wanted career advice oh he was a fan of the podcast that I do and we came off and we took a picture was kind of cool.

00:45:19: I am so and he wanted career advice from many of groupies now that you guys write that's how that's where you've arrived at.

00:45:26: That's right look at that anyway so that was that that was sort of fun and he asked me for career-wise which was pretty pretty nice I volunteered career advice and he asked me whether after his studies he should work for a.

00:45:39: He was naming a particular Logistics provider that had a big name and he said or.

00:45:44: That's a good idea in my first response was you know what if I was in your shoes I would work at a real cool LogTech startup,

00:45:50: because the experience you get there is invaluable this is a stage in your life were like we mentioned earlier you don't have the mortgage didn't have the three kids yeah you still somewhat somewhat.

00:46:01: Unbound and free and you could you can take risks and chances and you do the rewards for working at a start-up are that much higher plus combine that with the fact that you already have.

00:46:12: The basic Logistics and supply chain Knowledge from your studies and now you apply it at a LogTech startup that's a that's a golden combination so,

00:46:20: my my my advice for that person was unequivocally you go for start-up let me know when you're ready and I'll hook you up with the right people I have insights into what companies are a good you know I mean that for real so I,

00:46:32: that's that was my offer to him but any other advice or anything you would add to folks that are just entering the space so in that situation Boris you're describing someone's new to the industry they're going to have a heart

00:46:42: time distinguishing the truly interesting start up from the not interesting someone who's in the industry is going to have a easier time figuring that out because either they have the more expertise themselves where they have a network they can ask it.

00:46:55: For virtually any significant size startup someone who's in the industry is going to be able to find somebody who's a,

00:47:01: a customer an employee you know an ex-employee of these people it's just or an investor or something so I think the actually best thing they can do is try to find a buddy.

00:47:11: Or a mentor or somebody like this person who found you at the event to guide them in that regard even if it's just a black ball white ball type Vito type of factor it's just you know nothing else they just say hey just just,

00:47:23: don't go to this company or if you can't go to this company that would already change their odds in their favor

00:47:29: yeah I don't know if you've mentioned this and I don't know if you were Jonah but I know Frederick is for sure that I've recently launched a job board for the LogTech industry it's called logtechies you may have seen it and that's actually,

00:47:41: the model that I use there which is nobody's posting jobs on that job board that I haven't personally curated so I personally I grow to the companies that I think,

00:47:50: those are great companies to work for and then I tease out and sort of filtrate the best jobs and presented on that job board I think there's.

00:47:57: There is a need for that sort of sifting and hand curation.

00:48:02: It is tries an experiment right now let's see how it goes but I think the the instincts are aligned with what you just said especially not just for young people coming into the industry,

00:48:10: but someone in general like I'm very close to that whole scene because I talk to these Founders all the time and I have a sense of who's bullshitting and who's who's real.

00:48:18: And I'll try to press sort of past that expertise on and,

00:48:22: and be of service so I'll leave a link in the show notes to the logtechies drop or whoever is interested yeah that's my little plan hey go yeah Frederick anything you want to add there to that

00:48:31: to that part of the equation sure jumping to the what should be it should a junior person at the beginning of their career join a startup.

00:48:39: I think thinking about what you want to be in life and about your career success and what is what is going to determine your success is really important right and if you start,

00:48:49: like the initial pay is not determining where you're going to end up right where you're going to end up is determined by what you learn how much impact you created how much responsibility your head how fast who you worked with

00:48:59: and experience who made that and I think especially the beginning where you have little downside because you have little dependencies in most cases in your life where you can easily invest time,

00:49:08: and effort into a start-up that's a great time to start and then I think a good quite a guiding question if there are so many benefits to the ones starting the Korea also MIT or end of their career.

00:49:19: Is what's the worst thing that can happen right so if your if it doesn't work after a year or whatsoever you still learned a lot more than you would learn somewhere else your employability actually went up,

00:49:29: all right so I think that's something that to take into account

00:49:31: you just have to get over that hump where you do you have to describe to your family or friends who you work for it's great to say I work for sap or Oracle or what have you in a big names like oh wow you got hired there I'll look at you as opposed to saying well I worked for this company called and they say what

00:49:46: like what are the what do they do have to explain it you have to get over that hump but I would just add to everything you said was right and I would also add to it don't underestimate,

00:49:54: the confidence that comes along with working for start-up and I'm actually making that work

00:49:58: and taking on responsibility early on that is just a self-perpetuating thing that keeps going on and on when you build that,

00:50:05: confidence early on in the first couple of years it just goes from there as opposed to where you end up in ledge very large organization and have your small little piece of the pie that's already been done by somebody else in the past you don't get the same level of confidence there's just no way that happens so.

00:50:19: That's oftentimes underestimated that that it's a great way to build combat paper seems like well we're all very very bullish we have been all along but not where we're still bullish even then that downturn with everything with all the caveats we just mentioned.

00:50:32: So hopefully there was this was helpful to people who are thinking about whether this is the right time now in general at all to join a start-up in the LogTech space and if now is the right time whether you're in a season career or whether you fresh I hope,

00:50:45: there was some but something here for everybody today but Frederic Jonah thank you very much for your participation

00:50:51: I hope we'll see each other again I feel that their this wasn't everything that's supposed to be said about this topic there's a lot more left on the table that we could touch on a later point maybe but thanks thanks for being on again thanks for us

00:51:02: thanks Force.

00:51:04: All right that was the logistics try podcast episode with Frederick enforced and Jonah McIntire if you all inspired now to go work for LogTech startup and good place to start looking is the logtechies job board that I mentioned during this episode

00:51:17: you can find it at logtechies.com.

00:51:20: Alright that's it for today's show I hope you will join us again next week I'm Boris felgendreher until next time.